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Interview with Victoria Hartwick

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April 11,2023

Photo of Victoria Hartwick

You probably know from reading these that we like to start with your early years, where you were born, something about your family, if you have siblings, your parents and what they did, and mixed in with that, how early was it in your life that you developed an interest in what you’ve pursued academically and now in your career?

Let’s see. I was born in Chicago, Illinois, but I grew up in Wisconsin. I left Chicago at, I think, six months old. My parents: my dad is a radiologist and the reason we were in Chicago was for his residency. My mom has a degree in English literature and teaching. I have two siblings, an older sister and a younger brother, so I’m smack in the middle.

victoria-hartwick-run.png?w=364
Photo of Victoria Hartwick

And you know, I can’t even remember when I first started getting interested in science, and in particular in astronomy and planetary science. It’s just something I was always really interested in. I have this vague memory of like third grade and having to do a report on a planet and instead of doing just one, I did all of them! (laughs)  So that was probably a hint to my parents, that it was something that captured my imagination. I was just really lucky that I had parents who were excited to encourage me to pursue science and not a more practical career path. They just let me explore all the things I was interested in.

You’re reminding me of one of our earlier interviews, where the young researcher said she was interested in meteorology, especially clouds. She remembers  going on Sunday drives out in the Midwest and she would sit in the car looking up at the clouds and she got very interested in them. And then at some point she realized, oh my goodness, there are clouds on other planets! Isn’t that interesting? So she went down that path and became a scientist, researching planetary atmospheres. It’s interesting what triggers an interest, which is why parents expose children to all kinds of things, music, art, nature, and science. You never know what’s going to click with them.

That is something my dad, with sort of a science mind, still talks to me about, like, “How do you apply radiology imaging to imaging done outside of our planet?” And my mom is very much into the arts. She took me to all the plays and had me play violin and participate in forensics and community theater, all of that. So I had a nice balance of different things.

You did and you’re very fortunate.  As you grew up and got into school, there was a basic curriculum early on, but then there were times when you had to make some choices in terms of majors, courses of study, and so forth. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Sure. I had sort of a winding path, I think, to my major and ultimately to my PhD. I knew I was interested in science, but I didn’t know really where I was interested. So in undergraduate I was deciding between a neuroscience degree or a physics and astronomy degree. I toyed with linguistics because I’ve always loved languages and I thought, hey, that’s the “sciency” side of language. Ultimately, I got my undergraduate degree in astronomy and microbiology. I think I realized that I really was interested in planetary habitability, but I didn’t know what particular side of that, whether I was more interested in the broad, galactic point of view or the really narrow extremophile point of view. So I had these two scales of science that I was looking at. And it really took until grad school to kind of narrow in on what part I was most interested in. But it gave me some cool opportunities in undergrad to do a lot of different research. I was working in a leaf cutter ant lab and also doing extra galactic astronomy research, so I got to toy around a bit and see what was most interesting.

Science is a very broad category and it gives you, especially in space science, lots of options everywhere you go. And then at some point you wound up at the University of Colorado, Boulder, for your PhD?
Yes.

OK. And then you found your way to NASA Ames. Can you tell us how that happened? Was it just the posting of a postdoctoral opportunity or did you have a connection from someone here?

I had a connection. I was lucky enough to participate in some panels as a graduate student, and at conferences I started communicating and talking with Bob Haberle and Melinda Kahre here at Ames. And as I approached the end of my PhD, I started talking to them about opportunities and they pointed me to the NPP program. So I applied to work with Bob Haberle to kind of extend the Mars Climate Modeling Center’s work looking at exoplanets, Mars-like exoplanets.

Sounds like a perfect fit.

Yeah, it’s been fun to take what I learned about Mars, and this is again, kind of an extrapolation from smaller scale. We had really fine, really detailed experiments to look at present day Mars because we knew a lot about it. And I got to kind of broaden it, to say “Well, what if we were in this completely different environment? How can we apply what we learn from what’s happening on Mars today to a different environment, a different solar system, a different planetary type?”

Victoria Hartwick in Nature

Right. So maybe this is a good time to have you talk a little bit about the work that you do, including why it’s important enough that NASA is willing to ask the American taxpayer to subsidize it. Why would they be willing to support the kind of work that you do?

I think that’s a really good question and it’s something I think about because as an employee of NASA, through the Bay Area Environmental Research program, it’s my obligation as a scientist to contribute to the American people. And I want our research to be valuable to them and have, if not direct applications to their day-to-day life, still something that brings a greater sense of how our universe works and a greater sense of wonder about the world we live in.

Victoria Hartwick in Nature

I work on both Mars, present day Mars and Paleo Mars, and exoplanets. I think those two have very different applications. When we think about exoplanets, it’s really about learning more about how our universe works and where we fit in to the broader universe. So those fundamental questions: Are we alone? What does it mean to have life develop? What are the fundamental requirements for life to develop? That’s really what I’m looking at with these exoplanets to see what kind of environments might we expect, how do we identify those environments and could they be habitable? For present day Mars, it’s a little bit closer to home in the sense that it’s our next door neighbor, but it also has a little bit more direct application. it’s interesting just to know how a planet works, but also a lot of the work we do with our climate models is to support mission development and mission work. So EDL (Entry, Descent, Landing) can rely on some of our results. I recently did a really fun project looking at the feasibility of wind energy for human missions to Mars to see if that could be something that would aid in energy stability.


I listened to your Abscicon talk about that, and it was fascinating to me. I hadn’t realized that there might be a way to augment energy availability on a planet so that exploration could be better developed and supported, with more opportunities to go to more places. And that’s very interesting because, as we’ve seen the movies, there’s wind on Mars! (laughs)

Exactly. There’s wind, but it’s very easy to dismiss it since the atmosphere is so thin and the winds aren’t that strong. But the technology that we develop on Earth has gotten better and better. There’s opportunity to apply what we’ve learned on Earth to other planets.

So would the general value be considered in support of NASA’s strategic mission for exploration? Or is it more specific than that? Does it tie into the search for life?

Yeah, I think that’s fair to say. I mean, one of the goals of the current administration is to explore the potential for habitability and life and a lot of my exoplanet work fits directly into that goal and helps prioritize future mission development in order to evaluate that potential? But then one of my favorite things about astronomy is still just the sense of wonder you can get from recognizing how much there is in the universe and how different things can be and how almost anything you can think of is out there. In some respects I feel like my research can contribute to that excitement for all ages, especially for kids coming into STEM or interested in it in the future.

Has there been, in your so far relatively short career, some unusual or interesting finding, such as the wind idea, that’s cool? Anything like that that you want to talk about?

Yeah, for sure. There’s been a couple, actually.  My PhD is in atmospheric and oceanic sciences, so I was in a group that was very focused on Earth science and on really small scale evaluations of the Earth’s climate. And one of the most valuable experiences I got out of that was learning how to bridge the gap between Earth science and planetary science and take the things we learn from Earth and think about how they could be applicable to a different planetary environment. And two of my papers are directly related to that. The wind energy came from, the inspiration for that arose from a colleague’s presentation on wind evaluation for earth using a global climate model.  And my paper on cloud formation seeded on micrometeoritic dust was inspired by polar noctilucent clouds on Earth. It’s a type of cloud that we see today in the northern hemisphere summer pole that form on these, just basically on the debris of meteors burning up in the atmosphere. And we thought, “Hey, Mars is going through that same sort of cloud of interplanetary debris, and maybe that could be responsible for some of the clouds that we’ve observed but are really difficult to replicate in models”.

I’d like to ask what a typical day is like for you. We’ve had to qualify that because of the pandemic that’s ongoing but It looks like you’re back in the office now?

Yeah, I’m in the office today.

Have you able to do your work pretty much remotely without much problem? Do you have to be here to work in a lab or something like that.

I’m lucky that as a climate modeler, most of my work is computer work, so I just have to remotely log into the NASA supercomputer and that gives me the opportunity to work pretty easily from most locations. But it has been nice to get back into the office and be able to have conversations with colleagues that really spark inspiration and ideas and excitement.

That’s something that a number of researchers have mentioned that they miss more than anything. There’s a lot of convenience associated with working from home, especially if you have a commute or childcare obligations, something like that.

Yes.

But you do miss the interactions, the collaborations, and the fellowship of your science colleagues. It’s astounding to me that there are some new hires in the last few years who have never been on the Ames campus yet. That’s both amazing and sad.  Moving on, what do you enjoy most and least about your work?

Oh, that’s a hard one. I think what I enjoy most is related to what we were just saying, the sense of excitement and exploration when you’re really brainstorming new ideas with colleagues and seeing what everybody else is doing. I love going to scientific conferences and seeing all of the amazing work that people have been up to and having an opportunity to have these off the cuff conversations about how their work can relate to my work and vice versa. I think as in any job there’s always the mundanity of everyday tasks that can be tiring. As a global climate modeler, I have to deal with debugging code and that can be terrible.

I imagine it can.

Many a month in my graduate studies was spent trying to figure out what the hell was going on in this giant code. You learn a lot. That’s probably a low point, but is followed by the high point when you finally figure it out.

I can certainly relate to that, however you’re one of the few who hasn’t mentioned the bureaucratic paperwork that you have to do all the time and that’s probably. . .

I think I try not to think about it! (laughs).

. . .  probably because it goes without saying. But it’s obvious from your enthusiasm and just your whole demeanor that you’re happy with where you’ve landed, career wise. You’re excited about the things you’re doing and everything. But have you ever thought about, if you weren’t a research scientist for NASA, what your dream job might have been?

I have thought about that actually. I said I had a lot of indecision early in my career about what I wanted to do, I think if I wasn’t in planetary science, I would be in linguistics because I love languages and that’s one of the things I still miss because I would take all the language classes I could. So I always imagined I could have worked as a translator for the UN or something.

That’s interesting, and perhaps comes from your mom’s side of the family.

Yes! And then of course, I have a friend and we always said one day we would open a tea shop in a college town. So we’ll see if that ever comes to pass!  (laughs)

Photo of Victoria Hartwick

I always thought that foreign languages were intimidating and then I wound up having to learn one and I realized that it’s only a matter of memorization. You just memorize more words for things. You already have huge vocabulary built up over the years from a little child, and if you just learn more words for things, it doesn’t seem as daunting, at least to me.

What I’ve always liked about languages is that they make you think in slightly different ways because of the organization of the grammar and how you communicate. It’s different enough that it changes your perspective and in some sense I think coding is like that. It’s a very logical foreign language.

Yes, coding is analogous to a language. it is a language. How many languages have you picked up over the years?

Well, a couple. I mean, I’m only really good at maybe one or two besides English. I can speak reasonable French, I can get by.  And if I practiced, my Spanish isn’t too bad. I’ve taken courses in Russian and Italian. I took a class in a language called Nahuatl, which is the Aztec language. And I took old English, which was very hard. I think that was the hardest one I’ve done. And I’ve toyed with trying to learn Swedish, that’s sort of on my bucket list of ones to learn.

Have you taken any of the root languages, the fundamental languages like Latin or anything of that type?

You know, I haven’t. The closest was old English. But I haven’t gotten around to Latin.

I took Latin in high school and I’m not sure why, but I’m glad I did because it exemplifies the things you’ve talked about, the value of better understanding your own language.

Yep.

How other languages relate to each other and how words get to mean certain things.

Latin is always very interesting. From that you can see how words come together and the syntactical history of the word, and that’s great. But when I was first learning, I just wanted to talk to people, and there’s not much of an opportunity for that with Latin.

I’m tempted to interject a thought about the biblical story of the Tower of Babel because if there was going to be a way to interrupt what the people were trying to do, it would be hard to beat causing language confusion so they couldn’t understand each other, couldn’t communicate any more. It was a very effective means of disrupting their work.

Yeah.

So you’re on your way. Obviously you’re in the middle of a very successful and productive career. What advice would you give to a young up and coming PhD student, for example, or someone who would like to have a career like you are having now?

One thing is to follow your passions. Find the thing that you’re interested in and, don’t let somebody tell you it’s not practical or that you should be doing something differently. And also, and this is, I think, more important, is allow something to be difficult. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean you can’t do it. I always say I was naturally better at linguistics than astronomy. Physics is hard for me. It took a lot of work for me to really dig into it and understand it. I remember looking at people around me and they just seemed to get it immediately. I thought, maybe I’m not cut out for this field. Maybe I don’t have the innate talent to do it, but I think struggling and really thinking through something, can give you an interesting perspective on it, and a really strong base to build your science on. So the struggle is important and it’s OK.

That’s quite profound, actually. I remember talking with a guidance counselor who had been asked by someone who wanted to pursue a medical degree but was intimidated by the fact that it would take all those extra years, postgraduate years and then an internship,  5 or 6  years before they can actually become a practicing physician. The counselor’s question back to that person was: “Yes, but that time is still going to pass. You’re still going to be somewhere at that point. You’re not sacrificing those years. You’re just choosing your destination”.

Yeah.

And that just told me:  “Don’t look at it as something that takes too long because you’re going to live those years anyway. It’s just a matter of where are you will be at the end of those years.

I like that perspective. I’ll remember that when I’m struggling through the work now! (laughs)

Would you like to share anything about your personal life, your family, kids, pets, trips, hobbies, things you like to do?

I have been married six years now and we have a 1-1/2 year old, which has been new and exciting. He’s a handful and a lot of fun. And we have a great and very energetic Husky mix and she keeps our pet life interesting.

For sure!

Yeah. So that’s our little family.

Talents? Are you musical? What do you like to do?

I’ve played violin for, I don’t want to betray my age, something like 30 years now. (laughs) So that is something I still enjoy. And as a family, we like going hiking.

I like that, too.

Back in 2020 I took up ice skating because you know, why not? I always wanted to learn how to figure skate, so my husband got me lessons for Christmas and when I have free time, I try to do that still.

That’s wonderful. Our daughter was interested in ice skating for a while, and that was back when there were ice skating rinks in the area. There was one in Sunnyvale and one in Palo Alto, I think it was called Winter Lodge, and it is still there on Middlefield Road.

There’s one still down in San Jose, so I try to go to that one. It’s like the Sharks training facility, I think.

There used to be one in the bottom level of Vallco shopping center in Cupertino,  but it went away. The whole shopping center went away!

I’m not very good at all, but it’s amazing the joy you get out of something like figuring out how to skate backwards. (laughs)

Well, the one thing it’ll make you do is appreciate when you watch Olympic level figure skaters and the things that they do on the ice. When I go around my ankles are tilted inward. I can’t even stand up straight on them! (laughs)

Exactly!

So any other sports that you might have done along the way or were interested in?

Yeah, I did a bunch of rock climbing as an undergraduate but haven’t had much opportunity to do it out here. I’ve skied my whole life. But since my son was born my free time has been severely limited.

You can be forgiven for that! But a picture was posted on one of your websites of you climbing some rocks that looked like steps.

Photo of Victoria Hartwick

That was Iceland.

Oh yes, you did say it was Iceland.  That was fascinating. And then you were laying in the crook of a kind of an arch and I was trying to guess what the drop off was on the side that I couldn’t see, because I don’t care for heights too much. Where was that?

That was Arches National Park out in Utah and the other side, I think, was more perilous than I probably would do today, but for some reason I like really high heights. I find it very relaxing in a terrifying way! (laughs)

Photo of Victoria Hartwick

Yeah, it’s terrifying, I would agree with that. So maybe we’ve sort of covered the basics, but once we talk about your work and your life, we like to ask “what do you do for fun?”  

It’s changed a lot since having kids, but in a good way. I think having a kid makes you slow down and appreciate things that you wouldn’t have recognized or paid attention to otherwise. Now I get a lot of joy out of looking at the rocks on the sidewalk and at the plants that are growing, the squirrel running down the street. Things that I would usually overlook, but to be honest, that’s a lot of my life right now. Very slow walks led by an 18 month old!


That’s a great perspective because yes, when you walk with a child, all of a sudden you realize they’ve stopped and notice what has caught their attention. it’s usually a bug, or a little rock, or something that that we totally missed. And those things can be just as fascinating as the planet Mars.

I don’t think the he enjoys it when I try to explain Mars geology to him at his age. (laughs)

But the time will come.  One of the things we ask about is what accomplishment are you the most proud of that’s not related to your NASA work?

Oh, that’s a hard one! I am proud, and this is maybe a cop out easy answer, but I’m proud of just our family and being able to prioritize or balance the work, being focused on science but also having this family that I love so much, being able to participate with them. And then I think I’ve had to be resilient a lot in my career. I’ve had ups and downs and challenges and have needed to keep focused. It’s kind of like what I said before: that just because something is hard doesn’t mean that it’s not worth your time. If you’re not immediately successful it can be really disappointing but it’s not the end of the world. You can keep pushing through and keep working and can get somewhere, if not external success, then inside. And I think that has been something I’ve really learned, particularly as somebody who was a perfectionist growing up. Learning that failures are part of life and challenges are worthwhile.

Since you play the violin are you particularly drawn to classical music, or are there other musical genres that are of equal or greater interest?

I love all of it. I’ve listened to a lot of classical. Beethoven is my favorite, even though he’s a lot of people’s favorite. I lived in Paris for six months and I would go to the Louvre statue garden and just listen to an entire Beethoven Symphony. It was just my favorite thing to do. But I also really like bluegrass music. I like folk and acoustic. My husband is really into hard rock, so I’ve been learning how to appreciate that. We have a very musical household.

You have a well-rounded family musically, that’s for sure. And how about your reading interest? What book might we find on your night stand or in your office library?

That’s a great question. I read a lot of fiction and recently I’ve been getting into the genre that people call “cozy mysteries”. I’ve been reading Maisie Dobbs, which is sort of low stakes detective mysteries, not too scary, but just enough to give you a bit of a mystery to follow through on and explore.

That’s exploration in its own way, isn’t it? Who or what has inspired you, or does inspire you, as you move through life?

I’ve been lucky that there’s a lot of people in my life who are inspirational. Just colleagues, you know, seeing the path and the career that they’ve taken and the work that they do every day and the way that they approach scientific thought, I was always very inspired by how Bob Haberle could think through problems and how he could speak to the problems that he was working through so eloquently. I’ve always been inspired by both of my parents and their approach to the world and now to their approach to parenting, as I try to learn my way through that. I’ve also been very fortunate that I found a partner who has a unique perspective on the world that’s different than mine, so I can learn from him and be inspired by how he approaches the world and its challenges. It’s not hard to find people to look to and say, “Wow, I need to learn something from them because they’re doing something right.”

You’re right and the fact is, at least the way I look at it, everybody is my superior in some way that I can learn from.

I think that’s a really great perspective to have.

I mentioned earlier that we’d like to include images in the post that we finally put together for you and those may certainly include ones related to your work. They can also include, family things, anything that you’ve talked about: your interests, maybe you playing a violin or taking a walk with your son, anything that tends to illustrate the things you’ve talked about but is there a particularly favorite image that you would want to include?  I see a couple of pictures behind you on the wall of your office.  

Yeah. So you can see off to the corner, there’s this series of like, travel posters, basically for different planets in our solar system.

Are those little children in front of a planet? Is that what I’m seeing?

Yeah, that’s HAT-P-11 b  (a Neptune like gas giant planet), so it’s a hot Neptune. If you traveled there it would be quite bright and hot. (laughs)

victoria-hartwick-neptune.jpg?w=624
The first ultra-hot Neptune LTT 9779b is one of nature’s improbable planets – The Archaeology (archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com)

So the meaning of the poster is exploration?

It’s meant to be exploration. It’s meant to be, I guess sometime in our, in our maybe distant future where you might have a travel agent suggesting that you go on a voyage across the solar system and hit all the major planets. I have three in my house, I have a Mars, a solar system tour, and then one for Kepler 16. I’ve always really liked them. And then from a more or less artistic side, I guess I always really like the Mars Express images from the ESA mission because I just think they’re amazing. Every time I see them, I’m like, how are these real photos? They’re so amazing.

Mars Poster
The Grand Tour poster
Kepler-16 poster

Well, feel free to include any of those that are meaningful to you because knowing what you’re interested in and your perspective on things helps us better understand you and that is the point. So include those as well as any others that you’d like. I always think the more pictures the better. They draw attention and  help us understanding you better.

mosaic.jpg?w=936
This mosaic, which features the spectacular Kasei Valles, is made up of 67 images taken with the High-Resolution Stereo Camera on ESA’s Mars Express. ESA/DLR/FU Berlin (G. Neukum)

And also if there is a favorite quote that you’d like to have included you can share it now or you could add it later when you edit the transcript.


No, I can think of two off the top and they relate to two different kinds of perspectives on life. One is kind of related to the challenges we’ve talked about and I don’t even know who said it. it’s that “There are only two possible outcomes for any endeavor: success or learning”.

Oh, I like that.

Yeah, and that was very comforting to me for a lot of my graduate work and even now.

What a great perspective, because at the very end you’re expecting the word “failure”, but you’re not getting that. You’re getting another positive, two positives. And I like that.

And the other one is from a very interesting documentary about Antarctica by Werner Herzog, He showed that at McMurdo Station there is a wooden fence, and carved into it by someone is the quote: “I Sink into Bliss”. And I don’t know, it resonated with me as a reminder to sort of be “in the moment”, recognize the joys of the present moment, and really appreciate the good things going on around you.

That’s a great thought! Mark, did you want to say something?

Yes, regarding your comment on the your toddler noticing things like bugs. Does it expand your view on sciences when your kids ask you questions about the bugs and the rocks they find?

Theo’s not quite verbal yet, but I can see that in the future. As you look at what’s going on in the world it can make you see these small details and start questioning your perspective or how you looked at it prior and you start seeing things.  Like when we were on a hike and he was digging in the sand and the top layer was wet, and the bottom layer was dry, and I started thinking about Mars regolith, and the RSL’s and how that could contribute to dust lifting. So, you know, it’s always on. I’m sure I’ll annoy my kids in the future, like “Please stop, Mom! (laughs) At least I like to think so.

Victoria Hartwick Family
Victoria Hartwick Family

Well, he is going to be as fortunate growing up with you and your husband as you have been with your parents. A child’s curiosity and imagination are delightful to behold. Is there anything that you wish we had asked that we didn’t?

No, I think you really covered the broad range of it. I guess since this is a public facing website too, I would just encourage anybody who is interested, that this is a possibility. Just because it’s not your typical career path doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go for it, if you’re interested in it.  See where it lands you and pursue it. I like to see especially kids, you know, growing up in middle school and high school and I think they don’t always recognize that this is an option. It’s something you can do in your career and so realize that there are a lot of options out there.

Thank you for taking the time to sit for this brief interview. I think it will be a great addition to our series.

OK. That’s awesome. Thank you for reaching out to me.

*************************************

(Interview conducted by Fred Van Wert and Mark Vorobets)

Credits:

https://victoriahartwick.wixsite.com/research

Michael C. Wong (photocredit)

automaticblogging.com (photocredit)

https://www.cnet.com/pictures/mars-express-10-years-of-capturing-the-red-planet-in-full-color-pict

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      I hope that the students learn and become voices to help spread the word about natural sciences: we can study it and work in marine science. Usually in Puerto Rico, natural sciences are seen like a first step when you’re going to be focused in medical science or human health-related disciplines, and so that’s in some ways the tradition; it’s what the public knows. I hope this experience helped the students to spread the word that other kinds of careers are an alternative. I also hope it made them aware that we live in a vulnerable island and that we need to take action to become conscious, and to take action to be ready and to protect our natural resources.

      How did you become involved in marine science, and eventually OCEANOS?

      I actually come from Colombia. I did a bachelors degree in biology there and a minor in entomology, because at that point in my life I wanted to work in agriculture and to do pest control. But then I took a class on insect ecology, and I had to do a project and that’s when I discovered that my passion is ecology. So I applied to the University of Puerto Rico and I came here and did my master’s and my bachelor’s in tropical biology, but actually related to forests. But in the meantime I got married to a Puerto Rican guy, so I decided to stay here.

      Three years later I was able to land a permanent position as a faculty in a private university, and I realized that I didn’t like the way we usually teach science in the classroom. So I began taking trainings and looking for opportunities to mentor students and to teach students in non-traditional settings. I got involved in many projects and I have a strong collaboration with University of Maryland, and we have had these kinds of projects/training/research opportunities for students outside the classroom for many years. And that I why I think one PI called me and invited me to OCEANOS, and here I am.
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      Last Updated Nov 11, 2024 Related Terms
      General Ames Research Center's Science Directorate Earth Science Earth Science Division Explore More
      3 min read Interview with OCEANOS Instructor Samuel Suleiman
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    • NASA
      Interview with OCEANOS Instructor Samuel Suleiman
      By NASA
      3 min read
      Preparations for Next Moonwalk Simulations Underway (and Underwater)

      Samuel Suleiman, an instructor for the OCEANOS internship, teaches students about sargassum and shore ecology on Culebra Island, Puerto Rico, during the fieldwork section of the project. Suleiman is also the Executive Director of Sociedad Ambiente Marino: a Puerto Rican NGO that works in conservation and coral reef restoration.NASA ARC/Milan Loiacono
      What is your name and your role with OCEANOS?

      My name is Samuel Suleiman and I am the Executive Director of Sociedad Ambiente Marino: an NGO in Puerto Rico that has been working for the last 25 years to conserve our coastline and our reefs. During the OCEANOS internship, I am one of the Co-PIs (a co-instructor) for the project, and I’m in charge of the marine ecosystem in Culebra Island.  

      What is the importance of a program like OCEANOS, especially in Puerto Rico?

      The OCEANOS internship is pretty important for those students that don’t have the opportunity to go directly to our natural resources. Puerto Rico is an archipiélago – an island surrounded with other small islands  – and most of the population that we have on the island doesn’t appreciate or understand or protect our resources, because they haven’t had the opportunity to learn about it. OCEANOS provide this experience for these kids and also allows them to grow in different areas; not just in the in the lectures and the information and the marine science data, but also about working together as collaborators.

      What are some ways you’ve seen the students grow over the course of the internship?

      They have become more confident in the water compared to where we started, and they have start collaborating amongst themselves in their different research groups. They have also been changing their minds and attitudes, [which is] what we need for a better Puerto Rico and a better world.

      How did you get into science?

      I started in science because I wanted to be a pediatrician when I was a kid. I started in the Natural Science College at the University of Puerto Rico, then I changed to education in science. And I try to mix together my experience from the past: I almost drowned when I was five years old. Instead of paralyzing myself with fear of the water, I tried to explore, and I have been exploring since then; since I was five years old. Every time that I have the opportunity, I learn something new from the ocean.

      What is something that has been rewarding about working with these students?

      I think that we have to create a new kind of people that protect our resources. People that are willing to take what is needed to make a better world, and a better Puerto Rico.

      What is something you hope the students take with them after this program?

      I hope they feel a sense of belonging with the ocean, our coastline, our beaches, our resources, our reefs, our marine ecosystems. And I hope they can be ambassadors of these places.
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      Last Updated Nov 11, 2024 Related Terms
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      4 min read Interview with OCEANOS Instructor María Fernanda Barbarena-Arias
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    • NASA
      Interview with OCEANOS Instructor Roy Armstrong
      By NASA
      4 min read
      Preparations for Next Moonwalk Simulations Underway (and Underwater)

      Roy Armstrong, an instructor for the OCEANOS internship and marine sciences professor, pilots a small boat around the cays off the coast of La Parguera, Puerto Rico. NASA ARC/Milan Loiacono
      What is your name and your role with OCEANOS?

      My name is Ray Armstrong and I am a professor in the Department of Marine Sciences of the University of Puerto Rico. I came to be involved in OCEANOS because my ex-student and good friend Juan Torres-Perez, who works at NASA Ames Research Center, came up with this idea of having an internship for Hispanic students in Puerto Rico in the areas of remote sensing and oceanography, as a way of motivating Hispanic students to pursue careers in technology and oceanography.

      What is the importance of a program like OCEANOS, especially in Puerto Rico?

      Puerto Rico is an island and surrounded by ocean, and yet there is a lack of interest in marine sciences and oceanography compared to other disciplines. So we think that we need to promote the study and also conservation of our marine resources, and to use high technology  – such as remote sensing – to study and monitor our oceans and deal with things like water quality and the status of coral reefs, mangroves communities and so forth.

      What is something that has been rewarding about working with these students?

      Mostly the enthusiasm of the students when they go in the water or they look at mangroves for the first time, and learn more about their importance for fisheries and the coastline and so forth. Also sharing some of our stories and experiences in marine sciences, and listening to the students at the end of the program say that because of this experience they would like to pursue careers in marine sciences.

      What has been a challenge of the program?

      Well, one thing is the logistics, because it involves going out in boats in the ocean and there’s a limit of how many students can be in one place or in the water for safety reasons. So that that sets a limitation on the number of students for different activities.

      This year we started a virtual component where we are also teaching a cohort of students and teachers on the use of NASA remote sensing technology in a virtual way and they also participate in some of the projects that the in-person students developed for this project.

      How did you get into science?

      Oh, for me it was simple. I was in love with the ocean since I was a little kid. I had the opportunity of participating in what is called the ‘sea semester’ at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, also Boston University where I graduated, and that was a big difference. I immediately realized that that’s what I wanted to do the rest of my life.

      As someone born and raised in Puerto Rico, what are some of the environmental changes you’ve noticed in and around Puerto Rico?

      I was born in Ponce, which is the second largest city in Puerto Rico. I moved to Parguera to study marine sciences at the Department of Marine Sciences in 1976. So basically I have lived here all my life, as a student but also as a professor: this year is my 28th year as a professor of marine sciences.

      There were a lot of changes initially from hurricanes. In the late 1970s a couple of hurricanes destroyed huge areas of very shallow coral reef zones. After that there was a bloom of coral diseases. Through the years that has increased, decimating a lot of the coral populations in this area and in many other areas of the Caribbean and the world. More recently, in the last 5-10 years, more people in boats are coming to this area to a marine reserve, which put constant pressure on the ecosystem. When you have too many boats in one place, too many people in the water, and so forth, we don’t give the ecosystem a time to recover.

      What is the importance of a program like OCEANOS, particularly in Puerto Rico?

      We have seen that many professionals leave the island, in all disciplines. But if we can get younger people to be interested in what we do in the marine sciences in general. they will lhopefully ike to stay in Puerto Rico and work here and also make a difference in protecting our coastal ecosystems.

      What is something that you hope the students take with them when they leave?

      Even now, when the program is still going you can hear them say that the bonds they have established with fellow students and also with mentors and professors is very important. Some have also completely shifted their interest in other disciplines to marine science, or technology in general. And I’m very happy to hear that, because I think we’re having an effect on the on the people that come and the students that participate in this internship.
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      Last Updated Nov 11, 2024 Related Terms
      General Ames Research Center's Science Directorate Earth Science Division Science & Research Explore More
      4 min read Interview with OCEANOS Instructor María Fernanda Barbarena-Arias
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    • NASA
      Interview with OCEANOS PI Juan Torres-Pérez
      By NASA
      6 min read
      Preparations for Next Moonwalk Simulations Underway (and Underwater)

      OCEANOS PI Juan Torres-Pérez, a research scientist at NASA Ames Research Center, holds two pieces of cyanobacteria in the waters of Playa Melones, Culebra Island (Puerto Rico) during the 2024 OCEANOS internship. The cyanobacteria overgrowth is likely caused by an on-land source of pollution leeching into the waters.NASA ARC/Milan Loiacono
      What is your name and your role with OCEANOS?

      My name is Juan Torres-Pérez. I am a research scientist at NASA Ames Research Center in the Earth Sciences division, biospheric sciences branch. I am the PI of OCEANOS, which stands for Ocean Community Engagement and Awareness with NASA Observations and Science for Hispanic/Latino students.

      What is the importance of a program like OCEANOS, particularly in Puerto Rico?

      When you look at the statistics in the in the US, the Hispanic/Latino community is one of the largest minorities across the continental US and jurisdictions like Puerto Rico. But in the geo sciences, the percentage of Hispanic and Latinos is very, very small, including in Puerto Rico. So that’s where we wanted to propose a project like OCEANOS: to engage Hispanic/Latino students  in Puerto Rico in geosciences. Specifically, engaging students in oceanography and the use of remote sensing and NASA data to study coastal marine ecosystems.

      What are some of the activities that the students do as part of the program?

      For example here in Culebra, students study the coral reefs and their different components. What was the condition of the corals per se? The different coral species and their status. They’re also doing beach profiles, to measure whether the beaches have shrunk over time.

      One of the other things that they’re doing is measuring water quality in a few different sites in Culebra [Island] and also in la Parguera on the southwest coast of Puerto Rico,  so they can compare the water quality in the east of Puerto Rico against the Southwest.

      What is something that has been rewarding about working with these students?

      Something rewarding is just to see their faces. Last year when they finished the program and this year as they go through the different experiences, you see how they’re learning. You see how they become engaged and how they participate in the in all the different activities. Most of the evenings, event late at night they’re still working on the data and they want to continue working with the data. So that tells you that this is something that they really enjoy and that they want to do for the future.

      What growth or change do you see in the students over the course of the internship?

      For one example, we’ve had students here that on the very first day told us that they didn’t swim, and we brought them to the water in the first week. We gave them some pointers, we talked to them about safety in the water, and taught them some techniques. And now,  less than three weeks later they’re diving; they’re literally diving in the water collecting data and doing everything that we tell them to do. So that for us is a win-win situation.

      What has been a challenge of the program?

      A challenge for us is more on the on the logistics of bringing in so many students, particularly to the to the southwest coast and also to Culebra Island. These are both big tourism sites in Puerto Rico, which makes it tough for logistics like finding a place for them to stay. In the case of Culebra, we have to buy the ferry tickets to bring them to the island, the transportation and all of that. But at the end of the day it’s so rewarding that it’s definitely worth it.

      What is something that you hope the students take with them when they leave?

      We want the students to become agents of change. That means that they can pass on to their communities, their families, all their relatives, and their schools all the knowledge that they gain through this whole month, and eventually get others enthusiastic about not only engaging in activities like this, but also in preserving the ocean. We have some of the most beautiful coral reefs in the Caribbean here, and they’ve been suffering from a lot of different climate-related and anthropogenic activities. If we get them to tell others that we need to preserve this [marine ecosystem], and then they follow the same steps, that’s the long-term goal for us.

      What are some of the environmental changes you’ve noticed in and around Puerto Rico?

      One example is that nowadays there are several invasive species that have been affecting the coral reefs for at least the past couple decades and some of them even more recently. For instance, the introduction of the lionfish in the Caribbean has devastated some of the most important fish populations, such as groupers and snappers, which affects the whole food web. There are also a number of invasive seagrass species and also some other invertebrates that are literally colonizing all the areas that used to be covered by corals and the local seagrass species, and that disrupts the whole ecosystem.

      Many of them are a consequence of human introduction. Most of these species are actually from the Pacific, and come in or on ships as they go through the Panama canal and eventually they get into the Caribbean. Some of the larvae and such are in there,  and then they find a new place to stay and reproduce.

      Some other species are probably related to climate change: the increase in surface temperatures the changes in currents and such. This is something that’s still being studied by a lot of scientists in the Caribbean and also in the in the Atlantic.

      Do you see any climate change-related effects in Puerto Rico?

      In particular one of the biggest changes that we have seen in terms of climate change and its impact on coral reefs is the increasing surface temperatures. We are literally going through a global coral bleaching event. That has been happening in the last in the last few years and that has affected many of the coral species in the Caribbean and many other parts in the world. Once the coral gets bleached it becomes weakened, and eventually a lot of these colonies die. Once they die they get covered by filamentous algae, and there’s no way back from there. That affects the whole ecosystem, including fisheries and others. Also, some of the coral diseases may also be triggered by these changes related to climate.
      Read More Share
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      Last Updated Nov 11, 2024 Related Terms
      General Ames Research Center's Science Directorate Earth Science Earth Science Division Explore More
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    • NASA
      Interview with Xinchuan Huang
      By NASA
      Xinchuan Huang Let’s start with your childhood, where you were born, where you’re from, your young years, your family at the time, what your parents did, and how early it was in your life that you decided you’d like to pursue a career like the one you’re pursuing now?
      I was born in a small town in Sichuan, China. It is not far from the famous Emei Mountain, and the beautiful Qingyi river runs through it. At the beginning, I lived with my grandmother’s family in a small village on the riverbank, called “Pond in heaven”. After I left there at four years old, I lived with my parents in Sichuan and Xinjiang provinces, alternatively, as my parents had been working apart. Luckily their reunion came after three years, and finally there was a real “home” for us. My parents were both high school teachers, they worked in the school system opened by a research institute for the children of their employees. It has elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools. That’s where I grew up and received my pre-college education.
      The Emei Mountain lookout.  In China, it is the holy site of Samantabhadra Bodhisattva in Buddhism. Many monkeys live there.  Family photo when Xinchuan was 2 yrs. old The Qingyi river runs through Xinchuan’s home village. Since I was young, my mother has taught me enlightenment and urged my study. While my father was not quite involved in my academics, he valued the importance of reading and cultivated my interest in books. Every time we walked into a bookstore together, I was just purely happy because it simply meant one or two new books were coming home with me. He encouraged me to keep expanding my knowledge and horizons by also subscribing to many educational magazines and newspapers for kids, among which I remember two of my most favorite magazines. Before elementary school it was the “Children’s Science Pictorial”, and in elementary school it was the “Youth Science”.  Those magazines started and nurtured my interest in science and the universe.
      In middle school, there was an advertisement for a simple and cheap monocular telescope.  I told my dad about it and he helped me order one, even though all it could show was the craters on the moon. But I was so excited, I could lay on the cold ground, watching the moon for hours, as if a new world was unfolding in front of me. Seeing how much I enjoyed it, my father later ordered for me the astronomy volume of the Chinese Encyclopedia. It cost 20 Yuan, which was not a small amount at that time. I was so thrilled to have the book. Holding that hardcover book, I felt that I was holding the universe in my arms.
      I can imagine!
      But most contents in that encyclopedia were still too advanced for me at the time, so I was more obsessed with the colorful photos in the book. Along with my interest in space and the universe, I was also interested in the topics of UFOs and extraterrestrial civilizations. For example, I read a book called “The Mystery of Flying Saucers”, which was a collection of reports and discussions translated from French. In that book, it mentioned the Drake equation for estimating the likelihood of civilizations in the universe. It deeply impressed me. In 2009, after my postdoc at Ames, I had an opportunity to meet with Dr. Drake. He’s the author of the equation and the founder of the SETI Institute. I must say that not everyone has the opportunity or the luck to meet an idol from their childhood and truly chat with him.
      Good luck indeed!
      However, when I told Dr. Drake that my first time reading about his equation was in a book of UFOs, he laughed and said “(it) was in a wrong story!” (laughs)
      Dr. Drake (left) and Xinchuan at SETI Institute (2010) When I graduated from high school, I did consider a major in astronomy, but there were very few undergraduate astronomy majors in China universities. The only few available that year were either not recruiting in Sichuan or in a city I didn’t like. The famous Peking University did have astrophysics major, but each year they only recruited about 10 undergraduate students from the whole country, and few from Sichuan. Otherwise, I could have enrolled there thirty years ago.
      Any idea why they didn’t place more emphasis on astronomy?  China, as you know, has a strong reputation in space exploration.
      There is tradition for astronomy in China, and people know of ancient records and scientists, but it likely wasn’t the focus at that time. The astronomy and astrophysics research of Peking university and other China institutions have expanded significantly in last 30 years.
      That’s for sure.
      Anyway, I was admitted to the Fudan University in Shanghai, to major in Applied Chemistry II. That’s an interesting name. Usually you see chemistry, applied chemistry, materials chemistry, etc. What does the “II” mean? Previously, it was the Radiochemistry major, but people adjusted its content to keep up with the growth of economy, and to make it easier for their students to find jobs.  There was already a major of “Applied Chemistry” in the Chemistry department, so it became “Applied Chemistry II”.  My undergraduate thesis was done in the Institute of Laser Chemistry at Fudan, on the UV dissociation of a small organic molecule under cryogenic matrix isolation conditions. 
      Well, you certainly were well served by both your parents, as they helped direct your focus and your education. I also looked it up because I had not remembered that you came to Ames as a postdoc when I was associated with the NPP program as the Ames representative.
      Yes.
      In Tim’s Office. From Left to Right: Ryan Fortenberry, Timothy Lee, Xinchuan Huang, and Partha Bera (03/2011) I don’t remember all of them of course as there were quite a few over that period of time, but I hope that was a good experience for you. You were working with Tim Lee as your advisor and I’d known him for a very long time.
      I appreciated and enjoyed the opportunity of doing my postdoc at Ames. I had been thinking of other career choices right before Tim sent an email to Joel (my PhD advisor) asking if there was any student suited for a research project at Ames, about ammonia’s Infrared spectrum calculations. The target was to generate a complete IR line list which people can utilize to characterize the NH3 related celestial environments and eliminate all the NH3 features from the astronomical observations, such as those in Titan’s atmosphere.  It was a very good match to my Ph.D. background on the potential energy surface and vibrational dynamics of water cluster ions.
      You had another postdoc before you came to Ames?  At Emory University?
      Yes, that was more like a one-year extension after the thesis defense, to finish up my Ph.D. projects.
      How did you get from China to the United States?  Was it because of your educational pursuits?
      During my undergraduate study, I had some interest in laser chemistry and spectroscopy. For example, photodissociation products were detected and characterized by their infrared spectrum, and we know the spectroscopic fingerprints of molecules are determined by their nature, or internal properties. After college, I became a graduate student at the Institute of Chemistry, Chinese Academy of Science, in Beijing. Supposedly I should learn how to use a femtosecond laser system to investigate some ultra-fast processes in chemical reactions, but my supervisor left the institute unexpectedly.
      So, I applied to some graduate programs in United States, and later enrolled in the chemistry department of Emory University in Atlanta. The admission could be related to my background in laser chemistry labs, but I didn’t continue that path. Instead, I changed to theoretical chemistry and vibrational dynamics studies. But I always admired our colleague experimental spectroscopists working in the laboratories, perhaps because I have myself witnessed how difficult an experimental study could become. It may include sample preparation, optical path platform construction, vacuum pumps, laser tuning, circuit of detectors, hardware interface and software development, etc., so requiring a variety of knowledge and skills from chemistry, physics, to mechanics, electronics, and even materials and computer science. Compared to that, it is relatively simpler to do theoretical spectroscopic studies. But from our perspective, our work still belongs to the laboratory astrophysics. Our lab is set up inside computers, and our equipment and devices are computing programs and algorithms.
      Did you come to Emory because of a connection or a contact with them? Or did they just have a good program in what you were studying?
      I applied to several graduate programs in the US, and received admissions including Emory, but I had no connections with them before. I chose the physical chemistry graduate program at Emory, for their reputation in both experimental and theoretical research.
      So, you applied to several programs and you chose and got admitted to Emory. And then what was your route to Ames? Was it your postdoc? You got a postdoc here and then you stayed?
      Yes.
      That’s very straightforward.  
      Straight and simple.
      Did you know Tim at all beforehand? From a conference or something like that?
      Not personally, except that he was an expert in Coupled Cluster theory. After Tim contacted my advisor in the summer of 2005, I met him later that year in the ACS meeting at D.C.
      You were going to tell us something about the work that you are doing, which I found very complicated. It had to do with something called a “potential energy surface” and some other things which I don’t even know what they are, but let’s go ahead because one of the reasons we asked this question is because we want to know why it is important enough that taxpayers should fund research into it.
      Our research focuses on the Infrared and microwave spectrum ranges, provides high quality spectroscopic constants, or highly accurate Infrared line list predictions for small molecules in outer space. Those molecules play important roles in the interstellar medium, atmospheres of solar system objects, like Venus and Titan, and atmospheres of brown dwarfs and exoplanets. The IR spectroscopic constants and line lists will facilitate the detection of those molecules, help characterize the physical conditions of related environments, determine column densities or atmospheric concentrations, and improve the chemistry evolution models.  Since a large part of the astronomical research involves spectrum data analysis and modeling, naturally more reliable and more accurate reference data will be needed to better support NASA strategic goals, help maximize the scientific output of various NASA missions, and eventually help us better understand what’s going on in the universe.
      Inside SOFIA flight as a Guest Investigator (09/2015) EXES observation towards Orion KL/IRc2 (09/2015) Sgr B2, looking for c-C3H3+ IR features (09/2015) In the last two decades, the generation of more accurate reference data and predictions has required us to combine the advantages of experiments and theories. Our colleagues in Europe adopted similar strategies. For example, the latest Infrared line list we computed for hot carbon dioxide up to 3000 K has several components: high quality ab initio potential energy surface refined using reliable, high resolution experimental data or models, and the best dipole moment surfaces with accuracy already verified by recent highly accurate experiment IR intensities, and the most accurate line positions from the experiment based effective Hamiltonian models. In this way, the spectral line position and intensity accuracy from existing experiment data are integrated with the completeness, reliability and consistency from theoretical predictions. We hope the line list can improve the accuracy of CO2 analysis and modeling for brown dwarf and hot exoplanet atmospheres, which include, but not limited to the recent CO2 discoveries that JWST made on exoplanets.
      Hot CO2 IR Simulation at 1980 K using our AI-3000K line list, compared to experiment, UCL-4000, and HITEMP2010. See details in “AI-3000K Infrared line list for hot CO2” (Huang et al, 2023, JMSpec) open access. On the other hand, like I mentioned earlier, some molecules, like methyl cyanide, SO2, and ammonia, generate a plethora of spectral lines, appearing like wild grasses. That’s why some molecules were called “weeds”. They’re the “weeds” in the field of spectrum and may overshadow other important signals. Once I looked at a small segment of SOFIA EXES spectrum at 20 mm. Although I already knew it contained hundreds of sulfur dioxide bending mode transitions, I did not expect that so many very weak oscillations and tiny bumps in the observed spectrum could be excellently explained and reproduced until I ran the simulations by myself using SO2 line lists.  Without a reliable and complete line list, many weak features may go unnoticed and treated as noises.  But when you have a good line list, you can identify all the features of a specific molecule, then try to remove them, like removing weeds, so more interesting features or molecules can be found. We may call them the “flowers”. From this angle, we are like farmers in the spectroscopy field, or treasure hunters in the jungle of spectrum.
      That’s a good way of putting it. And this leads to a greater understanding of what elements of the NASA mission? How does this fit in with what NASA is trying to accomplish, which could be just exploration, or the search for life, or some of the other great questions that NASA is trying to help answer?
      There are several potential impacts from the basic scientific research we have been doing. One is to identify those molecules for their existence in the universe, where they are, and how many they are. Second is to figure out what their environment looks like, e.g., the pressure and temperature. An accurate reference line list can help to extract that information from observed spectrum data. The third impact is about some potential biosignature molecules for habitable exoplanets. Like the one we worked on recently, the nitrous oxide or laughing gas, N2O, it is one of those molecules contributing to the transit spectrum of Earth. Another impact is on chemical evolution models. Because our reliable predictions have very high consistency across isotopologues, higher than experiments, we can help to determine more accurate isotopic ratios and evolution history in outer space. In summary, and in the larger picture, we are contributing to the exploration of the universe and the search for habitable planets by providing basic reference data and tools for all NASA missions related to Infrared astronomy, from past Herschel, SOFIA, to JWST, and future ARIEL and other missions.
      You mentioned biosignatures, which caught my attention because we’re hoping to find some evidence that we’re not alone in the universe, that there is other biology going on somewhere out there. Almost all of our research focuses on trying to address that, at some level. And it has a lot of popular support, taxpayer support, because they want the answer to that question perhaps most of all.
      The IR spectra based astronomical research involves many models and datasets from different sources, like the spectra modeling on the JWST observations of exoplanet atmospheres. Every piece of work has its own uncertainties, which will add up model by model, database by database. A recent study published in Nature Astronomy revealed that the abundance errors resulting from the opacity inaccuracies can be about one order of magnitude larger than those brought on from JWST-quality observations. This is a bottleneck. From this perspective, our study can help to reduce, or to minimize those uncertainties and errors associated with the opacity data. Compared to experimental measurements under certain conditions, we are trying to provide a complete picture for molecules in the full range of IR and MW spectra. The computed line lists can be used to generate more reliable opacity data at different target temperatures.  Having more accurate opacity data with uncertainty reduced or minimized, scientists can determine more accurate properties for exoplanets and other objects in the universe. 
      Have there been any surprising or breakthrough findings or discoveries or something not expected that has come from your work?
      Not expected? Let me think.  We should be careful about the claims on the strengths and limitations of our work.  On one side we should have enough confidence, but every molecule is unique, we also need to properly estimate the limitation of our line list predictions.  With the synergy between experimental data and high-quality theoretical calculations, many improvements actually can be expected. If we know clearly what we can do and what our limits are, they are not real surprises. Some predictions may look surprising, but they need verifications from future experiments. If verified, the agreement is still expected. If rejected, it means something we need to explain or fix, not real breakthrough or findings.
      If we really want to talk about “surprises”, I can name two kinds of them. One is that we find surprisingly good agreement or high accuracy verification between predictions and experiments. For example, our room temperature CO2 line list. The IR intensity agreement with the best experiment measurement has reached the level of sub-half percent, for both accuracy and uncertainty, and towards 0.1 %, or permille level, 1‰. It was the best level ever achieved for CO2.  That’s kind of a surprise because we were targeting a major upgrade, we knew we were doing better, but we didn’t know the improvements would be so good. That is a good surprise, but there could also be an opposite kind of surprise: a similar molecule or band, similar studies following the same track, so we had assumed it should come out as satisfactory as other molecules or bands, but it did not work out. Then we must figure out what’s going on, what we forgot or missed, or what’s the difference. For example, is that due to some unknown electronic state interference, sensitive resonances, potential defects in potential energy surface, or program bugs, etc.?
      That is the science part of it.
      Those are really the surprises.
      You’re a very impressive and accomplished NASA research scientist, that’s obvious. And you’ve pursued that from youth, really, that line of work. Have you ever given any thought to, if you weren’t doing what you’re doing now, is there another dream job that you might like to have pursued if you had gone another way?
      When people talk about a dream job, it usually means something that cannot be realized, except in our dreams.  Maybe a contractor scientist without the need to worry about funding?
      But still a scientist? OK, that’s good too.  But what things would interest you if you couldn’t be a research scientist anymore? This is just to get into your personality and find out more about you.
      Oh, if I forget the astronomer or scientist dream from childhood? My dream job has changed several times. Right now, I think it would be interesting to be a local tourist guide.
      It would indeed. I like that.
      It is also good for me, not only helps to get familiar with my neighborhood, community, the natural environment, but also gives me some good exercise! (laughs)
      Right!
      What advice might you give to a young aspiring student who would like to have a career like yours?
      When I graduated from high school and went to Fudan University to study chemistry, I had never thought that one day I could still have the opportunity to work for NASA and become a scientist at SETI, Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence Institute. I also met Dr. Drake and talked to him. In a way this was already infinitely close to my childhood dreams. In this life, I could not become a real astronomer, the most I can do is some basic and auxiliary research work in the field of astrochemistry and theoretical spectroscopy. But looking back from my childhood and my college, I can’t help thinking of a phrase that I read from Steve Jobs, the Apple founder. What he said was something like: “many seemingly unrelated and even useless points in your life may someday eventually connect together to form a path to your dreams. Every piece of past experience will have its meaning and function and role in your career. It Is only then that we can realize their meaning and their role”. This statement roughly applies to me, though of course my experience has been much simpler.
      I like that quote because we don’t always realize as we’re living and moving forward, the significance of various things that happen. Something that’s just a coincidence can have quite an impact on one’s life or direction.
      Yes. The universe is infinite, and all the Earth’s science and technology can be found useful in space explorations, sooner or later.  If you are interested in the universe, in space sciences, but at the moment you cannot see how your specialty skills or major can be connected to space, don’t worry and don’t give up. Work hard on what you are doing now, whether it’s learning, research, or work, so that when the opportunity comes, you will be ready.
      My second piece of advice was borrowed from Professor Yuan-Tseh Lee, a Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry. About 20 years ago I met him at a conference. At that time, people were talking about innovations everywhere, but I could not find out how to innovate at all, no matter where I looked, so I asked him for advice. Professor Lee said innovation is not like that; innovation comes from years of continuous accumulation and improvements. He said first you need to get very familiar with what you have at hand, get to the bottom, fully understand principles and techniques of what you are doing, and then try to make improvements. There is always room for improvements, and even a tiny improvement will count and will help. Keep improving, a little bit here, a little bit there. Over time, this will eventually lead to real innovation and breakthroughs. My understanding or take away from his replies, is just like the ancient Chinese saying: “No accumulation of steps, no distance to thousands of miles; no accumulation of small streams, there will be no rivers and seas.” That’s it.
      Very good answer, thought provoking and true. Thank you for sharing that.  Would you like to tell us anything about your family? Are you married?  Do you have children?
      Yeah, I’m married, and my wife was also from the Chemistry Department of Emory.  But she works in the field of organic chemistry, which I could never figure out since my college years. (laughs) And we have two daughters, one in elementary school and the older one in high school. Our daily lives are kind of routine. Like driving the kids to school, back home doing my work, sometimes accompanying kids doing their homework, taking them to extra-curricular activities, cooking, etc.
      Rainbow at Ke’e beach (2007) Moreton Bay fig trees and “dinosaur egg” in Allerton Garden (2021) We have a favorite travel destination, the Kauai Island in Hawai’i. Our first visit to Kauai was in 2007, and we really, really like it. I went there more often than my family: I have been there seven times! (laughs) I enjoyed looking out to the west of Pacific Ocean at the end of the Waimea canyon and walking on the Ke’e beach at the east end of the Na Pali Trail. If there is a chance, I may think about living there after retirement.
      You could do worse than that! In fact, that might be the answer to the next question, which is: with all your work and family responsibilities, and everything that you are involved in, what do you do for fun?
      My interests include reading, like history, literature, and sci-fi books. I like sci-fi fictions and TV shows, such as “The Expanse” series, “The Peripheral” from last year, and the “Three-Body” TV series from China. For fun, I like Chinese Crosstalk, which is a comic dialogue between two people.  Every year I also like to pick cherries and nectarines from farms in Brentwood.
      Cherries and nectarines we picked from Brentwood farms. Because I use my phone or camera like a recorder, I took too many photos here and there, far more than truly memorable moments.  Those photos are a big headache when compiling a family yearbook. After our first child was born, it’s great fun to make annual photobooks for each year.
      It’s wonderful that you do that. That will pay dividends in the future, for sure.
      Before the pandemic, I also liked to have lunch together with a few colleagues every couple of weeks in some Chinese restaurants nearby, and most of the time we order spicy Chinese food.
      You like that? I like that too, although not too spicy!  What has been a prime inspiration for you in your life? Something that motivated you to accomplish all that you’ve accomplished so far. Is there a person that you particularly liked? Drake, for example, and his work, that helped to inspire you going forward?
      A major motivation has been my curiosity about  nature and stars. For inspirational figures, there were many – yes, Dr. Drake was one, because his work inspired people to think more seriously about the relation between life and the universe, and motivated me to make my own contributions. There was also inspiration from Professor Lee. After he won the chemistry Nobel Prize in 1986, there was a lot of laser chemistry related research going on in China. That’s what inspired me too, and why I asked him for advice.
      This has been wonderful. I’ve learned a lot about you and that is the whole purpose of this series. Thank you very much. We’ve enjoyed chatting with you.
      Thank you. It is great to have this opportunity to chat with you, I enjoyed it too.
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